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Talk:Andoria/archive 2
Background Huh. Wonder if the Reeves-Stevens might have been influenced to make the homeworld a habitable moon so that it'd be the actual planet that is named Andor by the planet En''dor, which has a similar situation over in the Star Wars mythos. :-/ It does makes some sense that the moon of a gas giant idea has now been paired canonically with the glaciated Andoria concept. Gas giants tend to be pretty far from their primaries, way off in the cold zone. (Though some gas giants can also radiate a lot of heat themselves.) --TheEntities 17:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC) You should include that info. It's interesting, and I don't think it's too far afield of the topic or anything. I was hesitant to write something about SW, but I've seen comparisons between Trek and other shows/movies in background sections before. --Icesyckel 23:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC) Removed Star Wars reference WHOOPS! :) I genuinely didn't realize it was protocol to put the snipped section of a page onto the talk page, so people could comment, or reword it for its return to the main page. Since this genuinely does make sense, I have no problem abiding by it. I removed this reference, because I really don't think random Star Wars comments are appropriate for Memory Alpha. ::There is an interesting parallel here between Star Trek and Star Wars: "Return of the Jedi." ROTJ told of both a planet and a moon named "Endor," but many casual viewers fail to realize that all the scenes in the movie depict the moon Endor, as the planet Endor was yet another gas giant as Andor is alleged to be 1.'' I do welcome discussion on the matter however. – Hossrex 05:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :I support the removal. We can't cite what "many casual viewers" believe.– Cleanse 05:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC) ::Well, I admit that I wrote the comment, and so my opinion is biased, but I saw the producers' gas giant explanation for the Andor/Andoria problem to be highly similar to the SW Universe Endor moon/Endor gas giant. All that changed was Andor:gas giant/Andoria moon. Could it be a coincidence? Possibly. Could the producers on the ENT DVD commentary have been thinking of SW when they were dreaming up a reason why Andoria is sometimes called Andor? It seems likely to me. If that's the case, then it has Background info merit in my humble opinion. That you may not care for Star Wars doesn't mean that the producers/writers didn't look there for inspiration in answering this issue. And, I feel that if something in SW has a significant effect upon the Trek universe, then it is worthy of mention. Notice, I didn't put it in the text of the article but in the bground, so people looking for interesting info being the article's subject can ponder the similarities. I think it's a bad idea to remove it, but again, I am biased. Someone else can make the call. As to "many viewers" - I wrote this before I read some of the policies and I believe that ctext could be removed/rephrased. --Icesyckel 05:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC) Considering that Andorians have been around since the late sixties... and the word Andor has been around long before the gas-giant/moon debate... I would find it doubtful that Garfield, and Judith Reeves-Stevens were influenced by a fairly insignificant, entirely obscure reference to Star Wars. I'm sick right now... the passage I just wrote doesn't encapsulate what I want to say... so if it doesn't make sense, I apologize. I can't think.– Hossrex 06:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :No worries - I hope you feel better soon. Being sick is a royal pain in the butt. As to Andor being around since the 60s, sure. Andor is older than SW, but the explanation of Garfield and Judith Reeves-Stevens appearing on the ENT DVD commentary is not so old. In fact, the explanation is younger than Return of the Jedi by many years. I could even see how this may have gone dow: in their heads: :Q: "Why do we have 'Andor' sometimes and 'Andoria' others?" :A: "Well, 'Andor' sure sounds a lot like 'Endor.'" :Q: "True, and 'Endor' was both a moon and a gas giant right?" :A" "Sure - lets do something like that. 'Andoria' is the moon and 'Andor' can be the gas giant.'" :Q: "Does that really fix our obvious screw-up in calling the Andorian homeworld by 2 different names?" :A/Q: "I don't know. Lets get some beer, and maybe then it will all make more sense?" :A: "Yes, beer is good. Alcohol has been the inspiration for many Trek writers. Remember 'Code of Honor'? What a great TNG episode." :Wow - I digressed. Anyway, I think we have a retcon that came long after the mistake was made, and they either consciously or subconsciously had ROTJ on the brain at the time they came up with the idea. It's almost the exact same explanation in both the Trek and SW universes - and I just don't believe in coincidences. --Icesyckel 16:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC) Again with the Background LOL That is an hilarious dramatization! Pretty much what I was thinking. It was just talk, though. I didn't really think it should be in the article, because I only speculated. Maybe I should have taken it to forums, sorry. It merely seemed like such an interesting thought. Now, I suggest also removing from Background the passage at the end; everything from the second "However, ..." It seems to me entirely redundant to the point made in Apocrypa.--TheEntities 01:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Creating unnecessary complexity Why are we pretending that there is a possibility that Andor doesn't refer to the Andorian homeworld? There has obviously been historical confusion with writers over the exact term (Andor vs Andoria) for the planet/system, and it's fine to note that. Pretending though that the writers weren't thinking of the politically-substantial Andorian homeworld as the location mentioned in "In the Cards" or "In the Pale Moonlight" is just creating unnecessary speculation and complexity. 02:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC) :I totally agree. I don't understand why someone have created this page. It's obvious that the planet mentioned as "Andor" in the ST series is intented to be Andoria. Why the producers have to use a similar name only to indicate some other world? For example, when Kai Winn mentioned "Andor" as a threatened Federation world, she listed also Vulcan. The writers were clearly referring to the Andorian homeworld. It is only a mistake, and we can assume without doubts that "Andor" is just another way to refer to Andoria. The producers also tried to explain this during the fourth season of Enterprise, and, even if they didn't to that in the end, it shows clearly that, in the past, they always inteded Andor as an equivalent for Andoria. Why Memory Alpha has to be so pedantic on this matter?--Sid-Vicious 11:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC) ::By stating that it's Andoria you're speculating, until we have confirmation the writer intended it to be Andoria then we have no proof and that's what's required for this site. — Morder 14:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC) :::But we have the confirmation, it is in the Background section of this page: "According to writers Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, in a special features segment in ENT Season 4 DVD, the establishment of the Andorian homeworld as a moon orbiting a gas giant was devised to help explain the contradiction of why it was sometimes called Andor and sometimes it was called Andoria."--Sid-Vicious 11:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC) ::::That actually seems to be confirmation for the fact that the writers acknowledged the different names, and tried to bring some reason to that (by allowing the possibility of one being the gas giant and the other being its inhabited moon). -- Cid Highwind 11:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :::::I agree, that this split causes unnecessary complexity. Basically, we all know, that Andor and Andoria are interchangeable names for the andorian homeworld. That we don't have an explicit confirmation is bean counting. The article even says, that there is an andorian ministry on this planet. Perplex (talk) 15:00, October 3, 2012 (UTC) Game Mention Star Trek: Conquest describes Andor as the homeworld of the Andorian Empire. Don't know if it's conclusive or not, but I think it should be included. Xavius, Envoy of Fluidic Space 18:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC) "The Sound of her Voice" That episode confirms a connection between Andor and the Andorians. "We met on Andor. I was assigned to the Federation Embassy as an attache and he was working in the Andorian Agricultural Ministry. At first, I didn't want anything to do with him -- he kept pointing his antennae at me whenever I walked through his office and I found that sort of rude." -- DS9 Forever 19:06, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Andor/Andoria In canon, we have seen that Andoria is a moon of Andor, the gas giant. So why doesn't the page say that outside of a casual mention? It doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't the fact be featured more prominently in the article? I'm just a guest, but also a serious Trekkie who is concerned about issues with canon. I say that Andor should be listed as a gas giant. Sorry to be so forward or to have made any typos resulting from my use of an iPad. 17:51, June 30, 2012 (UTC) Just to let you know this is the same person as above, but logged in. I added a bit more detail on the Andor/Andoria relationship to the main page on Andor. I just hope for more clarification on the subject, as I hope to do an story on Andoria on Memory Gamma. SPQR (talk) 18:51, June 30, 2012 (UTC) :I reverted the addition because we don't have speculation in articles, and the difference in names is mentioned in the cited background note, which is as far as we can go(unless there is additional cited information). 31dot (talk) 20:30, June 30, 2012 (UTC) ::Indeed. If the situation was that we only had one bg reference identifying the gas giant as Andor, and nothing more, it would be in accordance with our canon policy to label the unnamed gas giant as Andor, however we have also valid bg references that Andor is the alternative name for Andoria, therefore we cannot say for certain that Andor is the gas giant, nor can we say for certain Andor is Andoria. --Pseudohuman (talk) 23:17, June 30, 2012 (UTC) I was under the impression that this had been confirmed in canon. Sorry to have caused trouble. On the side, I think the only troublesome reference is from "The Sound of her Voice" as mentioned above. Maybe if there was a cloud city on Andor... but that's pure speculation. Anyway, apologies for the trouble. SPQR (talk) 00:47, July 5, 2012 (UTC) Kandari sector The USS Aleo okudagram in "Conspiracy" states that subspace relay station(s) in Kandari sector handle traffic linking Rigel and Andor. I see no reason why this has been taken as indication that Andor or any other place is located -within- this sector. -- Captain MKB 17:08, February 6, 2016 (UTC) Andor/Andoria revisited Is it perhaps time to revisit the Andor/Andoria issue? Michael's narration at the end of indicates "Andor" to be one of the four Federation founding worlds, which should make it the same as Andoria. -- UncertainError (talk) 06:11, February 12, 2018 (UTC) :Yeah, Discovery definitely seems to be using Andor as a synonym for Andoria. I'd say we should be treating them as synonyms and merge the two pages, just like we're treating Kronos and Qo'noS. Or Earth and Terra. It was intended to be the name for the gas giant in ENT, but that didn't make it to actual canon (and lots of canon references do imply that it's an M-class inhabited world).JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 10:07, February 12, 2018 (UTC) ::I agree. It time to merge Andor and Andoria.--Memphis77 (talk) 10:38, February 12, 2018 (UTC) :::Since she said it in canon, I would have to agree aswell. --| TrekFan Open a channel 12:07, February 12, 2018 (UTC) :::: Interesting side note: in the german dub of the episode, Burnham uses the term "Andoria" for that line. 22:11, February 12, 2018 (UTC) :::::I think there's not a clear intention on this. Perhaps we wait for a production source? -- Compvox (talk) 08:39, February 13, 2018 (UTC) ::I think this is a good example of Discovery writers using the names interchangeably (and not being sure which one is supposed to be the Andorian homeworld). You have a pretty clear statement from a DIS writer that he used "Andor" to mean the homeworld. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 08:42, February 13, 2018 (UTC) :::::I think so too, but that tweet could make it go either way especially with the MU context. We need an onscreen reference or a clearer statement on this one. -- Compvox (talk) 08:53, February 13, 2018 (UTC) I think the onscreen context of "Will You Take My Hand" is crystal clear that Andor is the Andorian homeworld. -- UncertainError (talk) 00:41, February 16, 2018 (UTC) :::::But it's also been otherwise that it's Andoria in by Archer & in by Shran, or at the same time Andor in by Worf & by Kai Winn. Burnham could have made an error. Or more likely the writers didn't know what they were saying as per the tweet. -- Compvox (talk) 10:33, February 16, 2018 (UTC) ::Or simply both names are interchangeable, like Kronos/Qo'noS/Kling or Earth/Terra. I'm pretty sure most uses of both Andor and Andoria are intended to refer to the Andorian homeworld. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 11:26, February 16, 2018 (UTC) :::And the Terran emperor made a mistake too, when she crowned herself "Regina Andor"? Burnham makinga a mistake is pure speculation as well as the producers not knowing what they do. And even if that's the case, it doesn't change the fact, that DIS uses the term Andor for the Andorian homeworld. 13:00, February 16, 2018 (UTC) :::::This is more complicated because of Andoria (star). It's like star/planet or star/planet/moon rather than planet/planet. Some Terrans get names wrong deliberately. -- Compvox (talk) 13:36, February 16, 2018 (UTC) ::It's clearly down to a lack of consistency between the writers and production staff but even so, from a canon point of view the two terms are used interchangeably to refer to the same planet. Therefore, I think we have to treat it as such here. --| TrekFan Open a channel 13:55, February 16, 2018 (UTC) ::::::There are many examples in Star Trek where a name is the same for both the star and the planet. Context and common sense are needed to know which is being referred to.--Memphis77 (talk) 20:27, February 16, 2018 (UTC) :::::::I support a merge. There's also , which mentions the Federation embassy to the Andorians being located on Andor. The current page is somewhat ridiculously detached from it being associated with the Andorians. Kennelly (talk) 14:47, February 19, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::Support as well. - Mitchz95 (talk) 05:49, March 8, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::The current Andor page isn't so much ridiculously detached because, that just is the inevitable result of us knowing very little about the term "Andor" specifically. It has to be that way, unless you're aching to fill in blanks. And that's why I'm still queasy about this merge thing. We know the writers on Enterprise at least intended them to be separate. If the pages stay split then that is one school of thought about the issue, but if you merge them it becomes a dustbin of history kinda thing. The evidence for them being the same is as thin as it can be, right there at that grey zone between evidence and non-evidence. It's so weak that many merge suggestions here are just rehashed frustrations about how weird it feels that it's still not merged, rather then really focusing on how strong the case for equivalence is. It seems a shame to discount the Enterprise school of thought compared to others based on that kind of discussion from the gut. -- Capricorn (talk) 17:01, March 8, 2019 (UTC) Every time that "Andor" was used in Trek, it was intended to mean the Andorian homeworld. We know this because, as the ENT writers themselves (and before them the Okudas) acknowledge, Andor/Andoria had been used interchangeably up to "The Aenar", which was the whole point for their new idea of making Andor the gas giant rather than the Andorian homeworld. And it was a production idea, never established onscreen, which DIS has chosen not to adopt. It's a background curiosity, not gospel. -- UncertainError (talk) 23:33, March 8, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::You're kidding yourself if you think anyone ever chose to adopt anything, people were and are just namedropping something they believe makes sense. The equivalence of the two terms is as much or little gospel as their non-equivalence, and technically the whole issue is a (background) curiosity. :::::::::I was just trying to provide a counterweight a lot of shoddy assertions, mate. Most of this discussion consists of presenting lines in episodes as saying more than they were saying, opinions written in authoritative sounding language, being selective about what's fair to assume and especially what's not, and x follows from y type assertions where x doesn't really follow from y. Note that I didn't even vote. I'm just frustrated that this discussion isn't being conducted at a higher standard. Depressing to see it answered with a post that ticks pretty much all the above boxes. -- Capricorn (talk) 05:14, March 9, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::Having separate articles for Andor and Andoria at this point, when they have clearly both been used for decades interchangeably to refer to the Andorian homeworld, is like splitting Qo'noS, Kronos and Kling into separate articles. JagoAndLitefoot (talk) 11:20, March 9, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::See, you say that, but Qo'noS and Kling were only merged very recently when a smoking gun turned up in the form of a map that had a location called "Qo'noS (Kronos, Kling)". This isn't about how many people strongly feel that clearly, they seem to be the same, it is about cold hard evidence. And there's plenty of evidence, but it's all highly circumstantial. -- Capricorn (talk) 21:06, March 9, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::It gets even more murky, if the latest evidence from is considered. It showed the destruction of the core Federation worlds: Earth, Vulcan, Tellar Prime, and Andor. Andor is seen as the ringed planet. This is the world destroyed. This would be a major retcon as, I understand it, Andor was one of the moons orbiting the ringed planet, which was seen as a gas giant in .--Memphis77 (talk) 23:46, March 9, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::I must have missed something there, where were those four planets identified in the episode? Also, I don't think the planet orbited by the Andorian homeworld in ENT was established to be a gas giant on-screen. It sure looks like it might be one, but then so do many M-class planets. -- Capricorn (talk) 09:10, March 10, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::It is identified in the script for "The Aenar" as a gas giant and here on this wiki as a gas giant.Trekcore, a reliable site, identified the ringed planet as Andoria.--Memphis77 (talk) 09:34, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::The Star Trek Encyclopedia (3rd edition) and most of the novels regard Andor and Andoria as different names for the Andorian homeworld. The only exceptions are Rise Like Lions and Star Trek: Federation - The First 150 Years which claim Andor is a gas giant. --NetSpiker (talk) 09:59, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::Sorry, I meant where are Earth, Vulcan, Tellar Prime, and Andor identified in If Memory Serves. Burnham mentions Andoria and Earth in describing her vision, but I completely missed the rest. And @NetSpiker, how are you still bringing up novels and stuff as evidence? You must have been explained a hundred times we don't consider those canon. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:10, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::Just thought I'd put it out there in case anyone was interested. --NetSpiker (talk) 10:13, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::It is interesting, by all means add it to relevant background sections. It just doesn't add to the discusion. -- Capricorn (talk) 10:16, March 10, 2019 (UTC) ::::::::::The fourth edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia' identified the gas giant as Andor. It is established in that the moon was the homeworld of the Andorians and the Aenar. So, why wasn't it destroyed? I personally believe that the people behind made a mistake, retconning what had been established previously and making the ringed planet the homeworld of the Andorians, now named Andoria. It wouldn't be the first time that they have made mistakes which have retconned earlier Trek.--Memphis77 (talk) 10:27, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::::I think people (TrekCore included) are reading too much into the red angel vision. Yes, we saw a ringed world destroyed, but that planet wasn't specifically identified as Andoria, Burnham just mentioned that she saw Andoria destroyed. The implication seemed to be that she was witnessing all of the galaxy's planets destroyed, and the four we saw were just a quick sequence from that vision. Anyway, that's irrelevant to the Andoria/Andor discussion IMO. - Mitchz95 (talk) 15:38, March 10, 2019 (UTC) :::::::::We didn't see the alleged Andoria destroyed, nor was Andoria even said to be destroyed. I just want to point that out, because people really need to be more careful about the claims they make here. Only one of the four planets seen is seen destroyed on screen (though the others are implied to be by the sequence), and Andoria is only mentioned to be barren. Another thing worth pointing out: the ringed planet looks about as much like Kaminar (a world of special interest to the red angel) as it looks like ENT's Andor. -- Capricorn (talk) 06:20, March 14, 2019 (UTC)